Sir Mike Penning (Hemel Hempstead) (Con)

It is a pleasure to take part in this debate. Like everybody in this room, I have constituents who suffer from this terrible genetic disease. We live in a society where sometimes those who shout loudest get heard more, but interestingly, it is not possible for those who suffer from this terrible disease and their families and loved-ones to have orchestrated the petition. Members of the general public who have no contact with someone who has CF have signed it and decided that the process is fundamentally unfair. Like the hon. Member for Dudley South—

Ian Austin

North.

Sir Mike Penning

My apologies—don’t forget I am a southerner.

The hon. Member for Dudley North (Ian Austin) and I had a good meeting at the roundtable. All of us learned things. For colleagues who were not there, there are some good notes to come around.​

We thought we would not have a decision by tonight from NHS England on the Vertex proposals—it usually takes much longer—so I was very disappointed when I saw not only what NHS England put out, but the press release from Vertex. As the hon. Gentleman said, it is not so much because the Department, NICE or the companies are bad—our constituents could not have any of their drugs without the R&D done by those companies. NICE is not capable, under its guidelines, of properly analysing the benefits of the drug, or the other drugs coming down the line. The Republic of Ireland must have sat in exactly the same position that we are now in. It had difficult negotiations with Vertex about a plan for not just one or two drugs, but the drugs coming down the line.

Let us not beat about the bush: this drug is not a cure. It helps some people. At the end of the day, they will either have a transplant or their lungs will give way. It is wonderful that we will have an opt-out transplant system. People are dying in this country today because the organs are being wasted. Lung transplants are vitally important. We should all campaign in our constituencies to give people the confidence to tell their loved-ones what they want done with their organs, rather than just relying on the legislation. At the end of the day, to help people today and future sufferers of this terrible disease—we know they are coming, because it is genetically in the system—we need not only drugs that slow it down and stop the lungs filling with fluid, but to get a cure. I hope we get to that position in my lifetime. Those of us who have been in the House for some time will remember taking the Human Fertilisation and Embryology Act 2008 through. It was very controversial when we started using that sort of technology, research and work, but I am pleased that we passed that Act because many people are around today who have better lives and who, without us using that technology, would have been very worried.

As my hon. Friend the Member for Sutton and Cheam (Paul Scully) said, this is not about individuals. When an individual gets CF, the whole family and all their loved ones get it. If the family is not there, what happens? The NHS and social services. Several colleagues have asked about the overall cost. If we do not give people these drugs—not just this one, but the others coming down the pipeline—the cost to the NHS is greater. If we take away the moral and ethical position that we have something that will improve and extend someone’s life and look just at what NICE looks at—the cost implications—it is plainly obvious that we need to have a better system for NICE to assess the costs.

My hon. Friend called it “physiotherapy”, but someone who suffers with CF has to have a pummelling. People have to do an amazing thing to their loved ones to get the fluid out their lungs and to stop them drowning internally. Instead of saying that drug companies are bad and NICE is good, we need to bang some heads. Frankly, the only people within Government who will do that are the Ministers. That was said to me time and again when I was a Minister. Time and again I tried, and time and again I got pushed back, but I kept going.

It is obvious—to echo what I said at the start of my comments—that those who shout the loudest should ​not always win. In this case, we need to shout for them. That is what we were sent here for, and that is what we should do today.

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health (Steve Brine)

With more than 115,000 signatures—my goodness—the petition shows what huge public support there is for tackling this terrible disease. The passionate way in which hon. Members across the board have spoken on behalf of their constituents is testament to that support. I want to make a special mention of the “Bury brothers”, who represent the 202 people in the Bury constituencies who signed the petition: the hon. Members for Bury North (James Frith) and for Bury South (Mr Lewis) both spoke well and in a sensible and balanced way. I can only assume that the hon. Member for Bury South, from what he said, must be a former Health Minister. Am I right?

Mr Lewis

indicated assent.

Steve Brine

I thank 163 of my own constituents who signed the petition and who have been in touch with me, and one who has been to my constituency surgery. I may be the Health Minister responding to the debate, but I am also a constituency MP and a parent of two young children.

I pay tribute to the Cystic Fibrosis Trust, which does a tremendous job on behalf of all our constituents. I know we are not meant to address the Gallery. I will not do so, but if I did I would thank those who have made ​the trip in the snow and ice, probably not all from SW1, to come to Westminster today. It is a credit to them that they have made time to do that.

I recognise the progress that Vertex has made to date in its mission—I believe it is a mission—to discover ultimately a cure for cystic fibrosis, and recognise the treatments that it brings to the market. I know Vertex understands the importance of the UK market, and NHS England as a customer, to its future and to that mission.

This petition is calling on the British Government—that would be me—

“to call for a resolution to ongoing negotiations between Vertex Pharmaceuticals, NHS England and NICE as a matter of the utmost urgency. It is essential that a fair and sustainable agreement is found.”

I am here today to do exactly that. It is not a difficult call to agree to. The negotiations must remain constructive and be undertaken with the utmost urgency, for all the reasons we have heard—I will not repeat them all—or, as my hon. Friend the Member for Mid Dorset and North Poole (Michael Tomlinson) said, people living with cystic fibrosis will suffer.

It seems to me that the main ask I have heard from pretty much every hon. Member speaking today is, “Get involved.” I am not the Minister directly responsible. That falls to Lord O’Shaughnessy, the Parliamentary Under-Secretary who sits in the other place, but I can say on his behalf and on mine that we are involved, and you can bet your life that we will continue to be involved. I do not think I can be clearer.

James Frith

The Minister says, “You can bet your life” that he will continue to be involved. Any further delay is literally betting lives and the ever-diminishing lung capacity of those who go without Orkambi. What will he commit to do differently from today, and when will Orkambi be prescribed by the NHS?

Steve Brine

The hon. Gentleman knows that I cannot give the answer to his when question. I will come to the other bits of his question. His point about the reducing lung function is well made, and has been made by almost everybody. The Government wholeheartedly support efforts to ensure that the precision medicines we have heard about are made widely available to CF patients and other patients. It is true that high-cost precision medicines represent a challenge to the NHS, but they are also a tremendous opportunity to deliver high-quality outcomes through highly specialised treatment. I hope I can go some way to ensuring that people with comparatively rarer conditions such as CF get the same quality, safety and efficacy in medicines as those who have more common conditions, and to doing so in a way that is sustainable for the NHS.

There has been much talk about NICE, which has a difficult job, as the hon. Member for Bury South rightly said, but as we know, England has the second-highest number of cystic fibrosis patients in the world and there is sadly no cure. Current treatments generally target the complications rather than the cause of the disease. Of course, I can appreciate the huge daily burden of treatment for patients and their families, and the uncertainty that they live with. Uncertainty is a huge burden—the hon. Member for Dudley North (Ian Austin) mentioned the mental health burden. It is so important that patient voices are heard during any appraisal process to ensure that that burden is fully understood.​

NICE’s technology appraisal programme makes recommendations for the NHS on whether drugs represent an effective use of NHS resources in what we must remember is a publicly funded health system, as many hon. Members have said. There are other parts of the world where, if someone could not afford it or their insurer could not afford it, this would not even be a discussion. That system means that patients can have the confidence that the price paid by the NHS is consistent with the improvement in health outcomes a medicine brings, ensuring fairness as well as the best possible use of funding for patients and the NHS.

Those are very difficult decisions to make, but it is essential that patients are getting the maximum benefit from every pound of our constituents’ money that is spent by the NHS. NICE takes its decision independently of Ministers. The Government rightly have no say in whether a new medicine is recommended for the NHS at the price proposed by the manufacturer. NICE published its final guidance on the use of Orkambi in July 2016 and, as we have heard, did not recommend it for use in treating cystic fibrosis. That, of course, is not the end of the story, and I do not want it to be. I will return to that in a moment—although, ironically in a three-hour debate, time is short for me to give our position.

Since 2013, NHS England has been responsible for securing high-quality outcomes for patients with cystic fibrosis. Six years ago, it agreed to fund Ivacaftor and Kalydeco for cystic fibrosis patients with the relevant genetic mutation. An additional possibility that may further the pool of treatment options for CF in the near future is the double combination therapy branded Symdeko, which has shown positive results and is currently undergoing European Medicines Agency licensing.

More broadly, the number of medicines for cystic fibrosis patients expected within the next three years is promising, with products being developed by a range of manufacturers as well as Vertex. NICE is aware of 31 other technologies by 19 different companies—not Vertex—that are in the pipeline for cystic fibrosis. Clearly, the prices for any new treatment will also be considered by NICE and we must ensure that the arrangements NHS England enters into now do not restrict options for patients to have the best available medicine in the future. The hon. Member for Bury North made that point very competently.

The NHS is in discussions with Vertex about Orkambi. Vertex has approached NHS England with a proposed deal to reduce its prices. While I cannot share the details of this proposal due to their commercially confidential nature—believe you me, I wish I could—I can assure hon. Members that, at the level that Vertex has proposed, the products are still far from cost-effective. Therefore, there is more talking to do.​

Last week NHS England made a counter-proposal, which would ensure that the drugs could be used at a price that is cost-effective. I understand that NHS England has agreed to meet with Vertex—I would jolly well hope so, and of course it is not over email—to discuss that counter-proposal further. I have seen the statements made this weekend—I must say I am no fan of Twitter diplomacy in this or any other form of diplomacy. The statements this weekend were not exactly encouraging, but they must not be the end of the story.

While it is not for Ministers to approve, I truly believe this can be a mutually satisfactory arrangement for both parties. I know I speak for my colleague, Lord O’Shaughnessy, when I say that we are both impatient for a breakthrough and are watching the matter like hawks. I get the message loud and clear: the House has said, “Get involved.” The House has that assurance from me.

I thank all hon. Members who have spoken so passionately. They have helped the cause on behalf of their constituents. On Orkambi in particular, I hope above all that hon. Members can see that this is a live issue and that it is work in progress.

Proposer winds up the debate

Paul Scully

I thank the Minister for listening to us today. I congratulate not only all hon. Members who have spoken today, but Gemma and Michelle, who started this petition, and the people I met at the Cystic Fibrosis Trust.

We have talked a lot about suffering over the last three hours, because of the obvious necessity, but there are a lot of young people with cystic fibrosis who are watching this, and I want to end on a positive note. I started by talking about the video I watched. When we talked about running, I remember Grace Miller’s parents looked at a bag of trophies that she had won running. She was sad, because she missed the ability to run because of her lung capacity.

I would say: “Don’t be sad. Don’t look back at what you have done. Look into the future at what you are doing. Enjoy every day, because it is your stories that you are telling us today, and the constituents we have heard from today, that have got us to the point where we can hopefully get the Minister, the Government, NHS England and Vertex around the table and have a bright future for our constituents who are suffering from cystic fibrosis, with that progressive medicine.”